The Power of Niche Podcasting: From Law to High-Quality Productions with Robert Ingalls

Discover the secrets of niche specialization and how it can transform your business strategy. In this episode, we recount our journey with Podcast Solutions Made Simple and our pivotal decision to focus on real estate professionals. We are excited to host Robert Ingalls, founder of LawPods, who shares his compelling story of moving from a career in law to establishing a successful podcast production agency for law firms. Learn how narrowing your focus can simplify branding, streamline processes, and enhance expertise while avoiding the pitfalls of trying to be everything to everyone.

Quality over quantity takes center stage as Robert and I discuss the challenges and rewards of transitioning from competing on price to delivering exceptional work. Hear personal anecdotes about our early struggles, the importance of recognizing your worth, and how "Pricing Creativity" influenced our approach to business. Whether you're contemplating starting your own venture or looking to elevate your current one, this conversation offers invaluable insights into building a high-quality, higher-margin business model.

Robert Ingalls is a recovering attorney, speaker, and the founder of LawPods, one of the first podcast marketing agencies for law firms. After the challenges of practicing law threatened to derail his career and mental health, he traded in his suit and tie for a shot at entrepreneurship. While there were a few rough years in between, he turned his spare bedroom podcasting hobby into a marketing agency servicing the biggest brands in law. He lives in Raleigh, North Carolina, with his delightful wife, darling daughters, and a proliferating collection of longboard skateboards.

Connect with Robert:

Website:
https://lawpods.com/

Social Media
LinkedIn Personal:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertingalls
LinkedIn Lawpods:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/lawpods
Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/lawpods
Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/lawpods

Chapters

• 0:04 The Power of Niche Podcasting
• 12:47 The Value of Quality Work
• 20:19 Mastering the Art of Podcasting
• 31:09 Entrepreneurship and Taking Risks

Transcript

Carl Richards: 0:04

Welcome to Communication Connection Community the podcaster's podcast. This podcast takes a deep dive into modern day communication strategies in the podcasting space. We chat with interesting people who make the podcasting and speaking spaces exciting and vibrant. We also dive into the podcasting community with news updates, latest trends and topics from this ever-evolving space. So strap in, it's going to be one amazing ride. Let's dive into today's episode.

Carl Richards: 0:34

You know, I have to say, being in the podcasting space is just such an amazing opportunity. I have met so many phenomenal people. But I have to tell you, it doesn't come without its fair share of challenges, especially when you're running an agency like Podcast Solutions Made Simple, where sometimes you're dealing a lot with individuals who want your services but they either can't afford it or they're not seeing the value in what it is that you do. And let me tell you, it can be very debilitating when you're new in this space. I've been through it Recently. We made a massive change, though, to our offerings and who we're serving on a regular basis, so I'm so excited to announce that we are still working a lot with coaches, consultants and subject matter experts, but our core focus now is on real estate professionals. So lenders, lawyers, land developers, anybody who touches real estate. That's our core, that we're going after, and I'm so excited to delve into this space and carry on this discussion with somebody who has been in this space as well not with real estate, but in a different capacity.

Carl Richards: 1:40

So let me introduce my guest today, Robert Ingalls, who's a recovering attorney, professional speaker and the founder of LawPods, one of the first podcast production agencies for law firms. At LawPods, Robert and his team help some of the premier law firms in the world launch and grow branded podcasts that build relationships and drive revenue. I'm so glad Robert is joining me today on the show. We actually have met before and I didn't realize that, Robert, when the request to be on the show came in because I know you get these too it came in it was like oh yeah, Robert, why does this name sound familiar? But, Robert, I'm glad we're reconnected. Welcome to the show.

Robert Ingalls: 2:18

Hey, it's great to be here and I didn't realize it either Initially. The company that pitches for me connected us and I was like sure I'd love to do this and I go to start booking it. I was like that name is familiar and I looked up your show and I'm like I know who that is. We talked like in July or something.

Carl Richards: 2:37

I know that guy, he owes me money, that's usually how the conversation goes right. One of the things I like that you're doing, Robert, is you've figured out and I don't know if this was by hook or by crook or by baptism by fire or how you figured it out, but there's power in taking or harnessing your niche. So talk about how you got to figuring this out, the birthing of LawPods and how you got to where you are.

Robert Ingalls: 3:03

Really the way I stumbled into the niche. I like to say niche a lot, because then you can say riches in the niches. I was a lawyer and I learned in that career that that really was true, that the lawyers that were doing well financially were the ones that had found their niche. They found the spot that they were doing it. They were doing personal injury. But not only were they doing personal injury, they were doing personal injury, catastrophic brain injury. They were doing trucking-specific things. They had this very specific practice and a few things were happening there.

Robert Ingalls: 3:44

A, it was easier to brand yourself I'm the person that does this specific thing but it's also easier to get good at that specific thing because the law is really broad. It's wild that when you go to law school they're like you should learn all of this, because most of it, after you learn it, you'll never use again. If you go into a niche practice area and then your processes, you're branding yourself, you're getting all of this, you're learning how to perform better and do your job, but then you're creating processes for your company that are all based around this specific niche that you're in.

Robert Ingalls: 4:20

And the whole thing, if you build it properly, starts to run like a machine, and I saw that. And then, of course, when I started practicing law, I hung my shingle and hired a couple employees. I practiced what they call door law and that's whatever comes in the door. That's what I practice, and you learn real quick that that is a disaster, because people come in with all kinds of crazy stuff and you just need the money. And I feel like agency owners fall into this all the time too. When you first start your agency, you're like my agency makes logos and then somebody comes in and they're like but we want to do a TV spot and we have money. And you're like I guess I do TV spots now because I need money and then six months later the client's not happy, they're not paying their bills because they don't have as much money as they acted like they had and it's a disaster. Everyone hates you and you worked way too hard. But learning that in there, when I finally got to a point where law was clearly not a good fit for my health mental health, physical health, all of it it just wasn't a good fit. It was much heavier than I wanted to deal with or just really I don't want to say capable, because I think we're capable of amazing things it was not the life I wanted. I was not going to find alignment there. Amazing things, it was not the life I wanted. I was not going to find alignment there. The short story is I was starting a family and I kind of had this moment where I realized I can't do this. I can't start a family and continue to be in this thing that is draining me and just slowly killing me is what it felt like. And I found personal development in that moment. I'd never been into personal development. It's funny. This is one of the like. And I found personal development in that moment. I'd never been into personal development. It's funny. This is one of the very first books I read in personal development, a book called Mindset, and I reread it every couple of years and find just new information every time that I guess I wasn't ready to understand the first time or the time before. That changed the course of my life.

Robert Ingalls: 6:22

The second podcast episode I ever listened to. Tom Bilyeu was the guest, and the takeaway from that episode was the most trite thing you've really ever heard. It's you can be anything you want with your life. Now. He never said those exact words, but that really was boiled down takeaway. I heard it and I thought I think I can be anything I want in my life, you know, and I just kind of started thinking about things. Like the blinders came off and I was like limitless possibilities. Within 30 days I owned a thousand dollars worth of gear for podcasting. I just was like I want to. I have words. I don't know if anybody listening can tell I have words and this mic I'm talking into. I bought this within 30 days of listening to that, which says a lot about my personality. Go big or go home.

Robert Ingalls: 7:12

I just started learning in my spare bedroom. It's a hobby, I mean. Anybody listening to a podcast about podcasting knows what it feels like to really enjoy podcasting as a hobby. Over a course of a couple of years I got really into it and I started to get really out of law. I had a lawyer in the community kind of asked me just hey, I see you're doing that, can you help me? I'd love to help you.

Robert Ingalls: 7:33

Client number one it wasn't long after that that I decided I'm going to try this, I'm going to try to go all in on this thing. And because I had a few other ideas at the time as I was getting out of law, but I was like I like this one, and you know to come back to the question initially about getting in the niche, it was immediately pretty clear that I wanted to try to do it for lawyers and I was drawing on the lesson I'd learned in law. You know, from a branding perspective, it's a lot easier to get known as the person that does this for this person. I'd read enough books. At that point too, I understood, from a branding perspective, like Apple's a good example. Apple didn't want to be for everybody. Their marketing went out of their way to say we're not for you, we're for this kind of person, and I loved how powerful that was. The beauty of it, too, was I didn't have to not take clients that were lawyers. Several of my early clients were not lawyers. I'd say 10% of my clients right now are not lawyers. They're people who found me and said do you also do? Well, the back end of what we do is almost identical for a lot of stuff, and so, yeah, no problem doing it, but our ability to carve out that niche and grow was incredible. Some days it feels really slow, but when I look back over the period it went faster.

Robert Ingalls: 8:53

I went from late 2017, I got my first client and then in late 21, I signed one of the largest law firms in the world, who I now have six shows with. It only took two years, from late 17 to a little over two years Right around pandemic time I signed my first top 100 in the world firm and there's no way that I'm able to move that quickly. If I'm just Rob's podcast, anybody who wants a podcast, rob makes your podcast. The last thing is I also I'd been to podcast conferences at this point and I'd seen the metrics. I saw the way businesses were using them. Businesses were coming to a point where they were starting to leverage podcasting.

Robert Ingalls: 9:35

Having been a lawyer, I knew that lawyers were going to show up late If this took off, which I was reasonably confident that it could. I knew lawyers would show up late to the game, which I was reasonably confident that it could. I knew lawyers would show up late to the game and because they show up late to the game, I'd already be in the space, already be an early mover in the space. I'd have that traction. So when they showed up, you know I want to be rollerblades. I want to be the only thing that they could think of, like in Lyon's case, nobody even knows that. I want to be the only thing they can think of when they think of the law podcast.

Carl Richards: 10:03

And that's the show. Robert, Thanks for being my guest.

Robert Ingalls: 10:05

I'm just kidding. I told you you got to rein me in.

Carl Richards: 10:09

I was going to use some of the this is an audio only podcast. I was going to use some of the gestures we used to use in broadcasting.

Carl Richards: 10:15

If I raise my hand, will you stop talking? I'm just kidding, because there's so much value in what you just shared and I really need to unbundle some of this because you've said so much. There, so many gems that you've shared about the processes that you went through, how it was affecting your health and how you got out of it, for you know it's still in your DNA, which is why you're able to do this for clients. But there's so much value there and I'm glad that you're not afraid to share, because sometimes guests are, sometimes guests are a little bit. Should I share that? But you're not, so I really appreciate that.

Carl Richards: 10:49

Not at all, but I really want to unbundle a little bit more detail this concept of niching, because and I think you've hit the nail on the head because there are so many podcasters out there or agencies out there, like you said Ours is not too dissimilar, but we do focus mostly on coaches, consultants and subject matter experts.

Carl Richards: 11:12

We're not for the hobbyist. We do have some specialty shows that we work on, but we're not as niche as you. But there is some definite value, as you've said, about not only niching within a specific genre, shall we say, but then also even niching and saying we're only going to take on clients who are at this level and because that's been, that's helped you with your success, as well as being able to get the clients who are the ones that are going to show up every time. They're serious about it. They're there to have fun. That's what the show is all about, or the show should be. There should be an element of fun in it. But you're definitely focused on the niche and I wanted to congratulate you on that and just expand on that a little bit more. But what it took to get there, to have that for the most part 90% of them being lawyers some of the stumbling blocks and things that you've learned along the way.

Robert Ingalls: 12:08

It's a grind in the beginning. I mean, I think it's a good thing that it is, because I have a vision board that I made years ago. Whenever I get something that's really impactful to me, I put it up there. One of the things I read Shoe Dog, and there was a quote that he came back to several times. It's not his quote, but it said the cowards never started and the weak died along the way. And so when it's hard, you remember, yeah, the weak die along the way. If it was easy, everyone would be here, and it's the people that are not weak, the people that choose to continue. When it's hard are the ones that are going to make it, and so it was hard, and I just, you got to stay at it, you got to continue. When it's hard are the ones that are going to make it, and so it was hard, and I just, you got to stay at it, you got to stay at it. This you got to just will it. So you got to work and will to get through it. And then, as you do that, you have to learn, and in the beginning I'm getting these clients, which I'm super thankful for them.

Robert Ingalls: 13:09

My first two clients gave me everything. We've since parted ways, but with very, I mean, I still have very good friends with both of them and they both gave me an opportunity. They gave me an opportunity to stop being Robert Ingalls the lawyer and start being Robert Ingalls the podcast producer, and I am infinitely grateful for that opportunity. And I got to learn things. I got to figure things out and I got to learn what I wanted to make and my personality is I want to make something amazing. I don't want to make something reasonably good that hopefully I can deliver super cheap and then deliver it a million times and make just a tiny bit of margin on each and then I'll make a lot of money. I want to do really good work. I want to stretch the boundaries of what's possible. I want to create something that when I look at it I go damn, and then the client looks at it and they go wow. I want to do that as often as I possibly can. When you realize that about yourself, which took me several years, like I knew, I wanted to do good work and I was doing good work, but then I was charging the kind of fees that somebody who is more thinking about volume and tighter margins, and those two things don't work together. You don't know what you don't know, so I'm just going and I'm figuring it out. I'm meeting mentors, I'm reading books and I finally started to learn.

Robert Ingalls: 14:45

Okay, you know, you can compete on price. That's what most people think is okay. I've got to price myself the way other people price themselves, right? I assume you probably had a similar idea when you started your business. 100 yep, you know what are other people charging?

Robert Ingalls: 15:01

All right, because you start thinking, well, I need to fall in there. No one's going to hire me, right, and I don't know. That's necessarily a bad thing on day one while you're cutting your teeth and figuring it out. But it's also a way to not differentiate yourself. If somebody's got three proposals and you're falling right around the same area, now you're letting them. All right, they're all in the same area. What is the real difference here? What's the differentiator? And if it feels like it's all about price, the differentiator's price and they're just going to take the cheaper option. But I'll tell you one thing that happens too is because this has happened to me a lot. I compete, you know. I have landed a lot of the largest firms in the world, and it is very rare for them not to have several. I mean, most of them have to have several other proposals that they can say they vetted before they hire you.

Carl Richards: 15:54

Yeah, they have to send it to tender and have all that taken care of. It's not just hey, Robert, he's a pretty good looking guy and he was first at the gate, or whatever, right? No, we need three different quotes, or 10 different, whatever that number is, to be able to make that decision.

Robert Ingalls: 16:12

Right, 10 different, whatever that number is to be able to make that decision Right. And when you're playing in that kind of sandbox if you're the cheapest option and it almost looks weird, it's like why is it this cheap? Cause I found myself in that position early in my career when I was trying to land bigger clients. And I did land some of them and they told me after we've been working together a while they were like we saw the work you did and it was really good and we couldn't believe how cheap it was and that's why they hired me. But that was before I understood margins and growing business and things like that. More often, you're going to see a situation where they're like it's too cheap, Something's wrong with it. You know, like if you are out buying a car and you want a 2018 Honda Accord with, you know, 60,000 miles, like that's kind of the sweet spot for what you're looking for and you're seeing that most of them are around $13,000. And then you see one for $4,000. You're probably not even going to look at it.

Robert Ingalls: 17:02

There's a red flag there, somewhere there's something wrong, it's too cheap, I'm not going to waste my time, I'm not stupid, nobody gives stuff away, and that is the message that you can send if you're not careful. And I was starting to learn that, and then we were talking about this earlier, but I read a book called Pricing Creativity. That helped me as well to understand how to price the creative things that you're building and, even more importantly, how to find the kind of prospect that will value the kind of work you want to do. Because there's the Walmart model of sell as much as you can to as many people as you can on a razor thin margin and get paid. And then there's the model of you know think of I'm trying to think of just something luxurious, maybe Rolex. You're going to sell a really good product that takes time and energy to create and you're going to sell fewer and you're going to make a better margin on them.

Robert Ingalls: 18:02

And where do you want to be? Because I think some people want to be on the Walmart model. Now it's ruthlessly competitive down there. That's a problem. It's really hard when you take your price to the bottom. You take that race to the bottom with price. Another problem I discovered is when something goes wrong, and it always does things break. Covid happens right when you're running on a razor thin margin and you lose a couple of clients for whatever reason, or you lose an employee or the market shifts. Anything happens. You might be in for disaster when you're running on razor thin margins like that, and so I knew I didn't want to be there, but I also knew I wanted to do really good work.

Carl Richards: 18:45

I think that's the key right there. So I'm actually going to stop you right there, or else I'm not going to get a word in edgewise yeah, it's how it goes but you know what?

Carl Richards: 18:52

this is great. I could probably, we could probably record a 17 hour episode and not cover all the ground we're not going to, by the way, because we need to sleep and eat and do all those things, but, but, but I think there's so much that we that we could cover, but I'm going to stop you right there, because one of the things that I have been sharing with clients, with prospects, with colleagues since I got into the space is this concept of quality. And you're right, you can't do the type of quality work you want to do if those margins are razor thin or if you're competing with the companies. And there are agencies that are on this razor thin margin as well. I don't know how they're there, but they are and I'm like how are you doing this? Because you know, and you shared, that if something happens like COVID, then you're maybe not done, but it certainly is an owie moment. It's like ouch, that hurts. I've lost three clients, and what am I going to do, unless you're doing it all yourself?

Carl Richards: 19:55

And there's those types of individuals as well that will do it all themselves, and I think there are also there's consumers who are looking for that cheap and cheerful price they're looking for, as you shared, they're looking for the Walmart version of it, and this is part of the soapbox I've been on as well and, if you don't mind me just shifting the conversation a little bit, please speak to quality a little bit. But it's also this concept of you can start a podcast for $0 or I'm a business coach, I started a podcast and I just recorded on my phone and I use this software and I use this and to do this I use this. But that's not necessarily giving you the quality and the professionalism that your brand and business deserves. And I think LawPod is a great example of that, because you're representing clients that are millions, if not billions, come into those organizations every year. You wouldn't think to record that on a cell phone and say here's my product. It just wouldn't make sense, right?

Robert Ingalls: 21:02

And I would say that, even starting with the recording, I think let's use Joe Rogan as an example, as the most downloaded podcaster. I think if he started recording on his phone and putting out his podcast, people would still listen to it. Of course, quality wouldn't be great, he might lose a few people here and there, but I think people would still listen because the content, they trust him. Now they know the content's good and they want to come for it, as long as they can understand what's going on. And I think that that holds true generally speaking. But the problem is, when you first launch a podcast, nobody knows about it. Nobody knows if it's valuable. You are trying to convince someone that it's valuable Now, if you're supporting an existing brand where you already have a following, easier right. But the real problem for people isn't the recording. That part is easy. Honestly, it's easy to sound as good as you and me sound. Right. This second, it really isn't hard. Now have I made it more complicated? Do I have a you know, heil PR40 plugged into a Rodecaster Pro 2? Going into my MacBook Pro M1 Pro? Yes, do I? Does a regular person need all of that? No, you can buy an ATR2100X, for I think they're around 40 or 50 bucks. Now they are gotten very cheap and you can plug it right into your Chromebook, I would expect, and you're on your mic, you're recording. You know, hop on Zoom or download Audacity and hit record. You are recording your podcast. It's going to sound really good, right? So that part now recording your podcast. It's going to sound really good, right? So that part now? Not super complicated, not that difficult.

Robert Ingalls: 22:36

But what do you do with it once it's recorded? That is where it starts to get frustrating for people. Because you do, you're right, you hear those people. They say, oh, it's so easy, I just record it here on my phone. Well then, what do you do with it? Well, how does it get anywhere? And nobody knows the answer to that. So now they're doing what. I don't know what your path to podcasting was, but mine was watching Cliff Ravenscraft and then John Lee Dumas and Googling what a TRRS cable is and just being just wrist deep in the technology and buying the wrong cords and not figuring out what's working and what it is, and just trial by fire and error and all of that stuff, and every time Apple makes an update. Now I got to change the way I'm doing something and why is this breaking? That is the stuff that someone like me and you are here for, because that is our job.

Carl Richards: 23:28

That's the stuff that, again, you're dealing with lawyers, attorneys that's not in their wheelhouse, they don't have the time, they don't have the bandwidth to figure it all out and to answer your question. By the way, I started out. I have 25 years in broadcasting, so I'm I'm I'm lucky compared to a lot of people who are coming into the podcasting space, who don't have that experience. So I already knew how to record into. Actually, I didn't use Audacity, I used Adobe Audition, but I use Audacity now because it's easy. Point is is that I can do that right, I know how to do it, I know how to speak, I know about microphones, but I'm to your point, though. I'm on podcast microphone number four and it's still not the one that I want to have as my product.

Robert Ingalls: 24:15

What is the one that you?

Carl Richards: 24:16

want. Even though I started out with this knowledge of broadcasting, I still had to evolve with that's a decent microphone for podcasting, oh, but it's not as good as this, which is not as good as the Yeti, which is not you know. So it is an evolution, but you're right, it's the. What do you do with it afterwards? Because if it was just about recording and putting it out there, anyone can do that, Just like anyone can grab their phone and do a Facebook live, and that's fine. But that's not what you would do if you were creating a signature video for your business or your brand.

Robert Ingalls: 24:51

Right Wouldn't do that. How do you differentiate yourself with that?

Robert Ingalls: 24:54

There's more to it than that. Yeah, you made an excellent point with. It's not worth your time, because that is something that comes up a lot is. I work with a lot of firms now that started it in-house and they realized usually they'd hire someone, they'd hire somebody in the marketing team or they'd designate somebody on the marketing team to do the podcast and they relatively quickly discover that one person is almost incapable of putting together a good podcast because it is such a wide array of skills.

Robert Ingalls: 25:31

It's understanding strategy. Who's our avatar? What are we going to be talking about? How do we, you know? What pain point are we solving for them? How can we consistently and reliably deliver content that will be valuable for that listener?

Robert Ingalls: 25:43

And then we've got to record it. We got to understand how to record it. Then we need to take it and edit it. Then we want to edit that video. Then we want to clip that video up into not just clips, not just. You know, ai is great right now but it's terrible at choosing clips. It just cuts whatever the hell it wants. I've got to go in and I've got to understand what is the part in here that would be valuable for the avatar. What would the avatar see and go that speaks to me and then leave them wanting more so they convert to a listener.

Robert Ingalls: 26:12

And then you want to write the show notes. Then you got to get it transcribed. Then you need to post it to your website, to youtube. Then you want to post it. You know you want to make sure it goes out on all of the podcast platforms and knowing what those platforms are and the rules to submit to each of those platforms, then understanding how code works, you can make sure that you're embedding the podcast on the website correctly and the YouTube video embedded there. And why is the YouTube video this wide when I only want it this wide? All of the little nonsense that it takes to pull off this thing that we're doing and we make it look really easy. One person is not gonna do that well, and I know that because I know this stuff better than most people know it, and I'd be in a hell of a mess if I had to do all of this myself.

Carl Richards: 26:57

I have. But how many times have you heard or seen that, oh yeah, my marketing person does that, or my VA does all of that, and I'm like that poor VA that does everything. I can understand a VA that there's maybe transcribing or or setting up show notes that you've created or something like that, but but to do all of that? I'm like oh no, no, no, no, no, which goes back to niche. You know, and you should be treating it as you know, your podcast is a reflection of your brand. It's an extension of what it is that you do. It reflects your credibility.

Carl Richards: 27:37

Why wouldn't you put as much effort and emphasis into that as you would? For example, a website. There are websites that I'm not technically inclined when it comes to web. So when I say I can go out and build my own website, I know I can't, but there are platforms out there that allow you to do that. It's plug and play, boom, boom, boom and away. It's done. It would look awful, but at least you have a website. But if you are running one of the top law firms in the world, do you want your marketing person to go and build your website for you using Wix? No, you're probably going to spend thousands, if not even hundreds of thousands, to make sure that it's exactly targeted the way it needs to be done, you know, to close the loop on doing it yourself.

Robert Ingalls: 28:22

An easy thing, even when I'm talking to smaller firms, is what do you bill per hour? $300 an hour, $400 an hour? And I'm not. My job isn't to convince somebody that I'm the right solution for them. My job is to determine if I can be the right solution for them, if we're a good fit together, Because sometimes I'll tell people I think that you're better off starting for what you're trying to accomplish in your budget.

Robert Ingalls: 28:48

You're better off starting at this place with, you know, with maybe just a VA, if that's all you need right now. But don't do it yourself, because if you're billing at $300 or $400 an hour, you're going to pay even a high-priced VA $50 an hour and they're going to be better than you at almost all of this, and so you owe it to yourself. And that just tracks through anything in business. Try not to do things that you can pay somebody less than whatever you've established your hourly rate to be, and it's hard not to do that, but the more you start to buy back your time from other people that's how I think about it is I'm going to give you money, so you'll give me back my time and it's a game changer Big time.

Carl Richards: 29:32

And you know what A podcast is like your business. There's many moving parts to it. The reason why you outsource certain things or you delegate tasks those $10 an hour tasks to those individuals that can do them, it's not because you can't do them. I love opening my Canva and having fun with it and trying to create it.

Robert Ingalls: 29:54

Oh yeah, absolutely.

Carl Richards: 29:55

But you know what my VA is so much better at it. When I do it, it looks like crap. When my VA does it, it looks really professional. And I go and her name's Stephanie, by the way, I said, oh, my name is Stephanie. By the way, I said, oh my God, if it wasn't for Stephanie.

Robert Ingalls: 30:15

I could die, but I can't even imagine going back to doing those tasks myself. And even if you could do it, well, there are things in your business only you can do, and when you're doing things that other people can do and neglecting the things that only you can do now, you're in a mess.

Carl Richards: 30:29

Let's talk about LawPods very quickly and then I want to give you a chance to if there's something other words of wisdom you want to share before we, because we can talk about this forever like I said I would.

Carl Richards: 30:39

We might have to have a follow-up episode. Hey, I'm always around for it To talk about something else. But tell me about LawPods a little bit. We've touched on it a little bit. You've shared that you work a lot with lawyers, attorneys, big large law firms. But share a little bit about what you're doing and how things are going for you.

Robert Ingalls: 30:56

Yeah, I mean I love LawPods. I mean it falls right below my ladies, right below my daughters, my wife, my mom, my sisters. That's, it's right below. That, it's I.

Robert Ingalls: 31:09

There's something so exciting about taking an idea that didn't exist and just thinking I, I kind of think I can do this, and then making it, and now it's a thing, it's like a whole thing, it's a brand, when it was just an idea and for me, I think some people think that they meet someone like me and I'm doing it and I'm in it, and they think, oh, you're the kind of person that does this, like you are, you're that and it's, it's crazy, because that's not me at all. Like, that's just, I'm not the kind of person. I decided to build this person, right, I just decided to act as if and build the person who does this thing. So I build this thing, this company. I've had such a blast with it. It started out as me doing everything, everything. I learned how to use photoshop and this was back when you couldn't just hit the button on Canva to cut out the hair. I cut out hair, pixel by pixel, watching.

Robert Ingalls: 32:13

YouTube videos teaching me.

Carl Richards: 32:15

That sounds like so much fun to try to do all that. Cause I'm like it was free, Canva I was, I would not.

Robert Ingalls: 32:21

Yeah, Canva comes around it was cool to learn, but it was like that's the thing I'm excited about it, and but I also didn't have. I needed to keep all the money that client gave me, so I was like I am going to figure this out, but it also taught me what it takes to go into making an amazing product. Building this company was such a labor of love. I got a full-time job right after I decided to really try to build it at a bank in compliance, which, for anybody leaving law which I don't know that that's all your listeners but, man, what a cushy job that was after coming out of a gruelling legal career. But I worked there a couple of years while I was building this and after two years, on March 2nd 2020, I quit my job and it was exhilarating and that a couple of days later I flew to Orlando for Podfest, which is a big podcast conference that they do Chris Krimitsos love that guy and I went down there super exciting. I just quit my job, I'm going all in on LawPods and then, while we're there, we're starting to hear about you know this virus and they're you know, they're everybody's being you know, kind of cool, but they're putting out extra hand sanitizer stations and we nobody really knew what was going on. Then we get home and, of course, a few days later it's like nobody go anywhere. And that was scary because I just quit my job with my benefits. I had a baby daughter and I'm thinking, oh, I've made a huge mistake. Turned out, it worked out well.

Robert Ingalls: 33:53

Digital marketing had a really good couple of years because everybody was at home. It's been great. We've grown so much. We are doubling year over year. We're going to try to double this year, but it's a big one because every year that you double, it's a much bigger number to try to double the next year. We're going to try to double this year, but it's a big one because every year that you double, it's a much bigger number to try to double the next year. We've been fortunate. Yeah, I love it. It's every day. I say this a lot Every day I'm running the biggest company I've ever run, so every day I really don't know what I'm doing. But for a person like me, that's the thrill is I don't know what I'm doing. I get bored really easily. So I need that novelty of oh shit, something's on fire, what do we do? So I love it.

Carl Richards: 34:35

Awesome. Robert Ingalls has been my guest today and it's been a phenomenal conversation. Like I said, robert, we might have to do another two or three. Bring me back Every now and again, just check in. We'll make you the quarterly guest.

Robert Ingalls: 34:47

I don't know, dude, I love it, I love it. Nothing will make me happier.

Carl Richards: 34:50

Coming on the show. But before I let you go, I know you've shared a lot of nuggets and words of wisdom and shared a lot of your insights. Today, your final, thoughts.

Robert Ingalls: 35:00

Take your shot. I mean, that's one of the things I really do hold dear is take your shot. There's a nurse that worked with the dying for many years and she ended up writing this stuff down, and the number one regret of the dying was, to paraphrase they wish they would have taken their shot. They wished that they would have had the courage to do the thing that they cared about, and that is terrifying to me. That's what drives one of the things that drives me, you know. If I am able to know that it's coming and I'm laying there, I want to go with the thought that I took my shot and I left nothing out there. So take your shot.

Carl Richards: 35:44

Robert, I love it. Thank you so much for being my guest today.

Robert Ingalls: 35:47

Hey, , thank you for having me, I loved it,

Carl Richards: 35:49

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